Safeguarding Podcast – The Hidden Addiction with Lucy Gardner and Kev Cleland, YGAM

By Neil Fairbrother

In this Safeguarding Podcast with Lucy Gardner & Kevin Cleland of YGAM we discuss the convergence of gaming and gambling, the shared techniques of each to hook their users into what YGAM call the Hidden Addiction. Is gambling addiction the same as gaming addiction? The 2992% growth of e-Sports gambling during COVID lockdown, loot boxes, and how Louis Vuitton and other high fashion houses encourage skin gambling.

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There’s a lightly edited transcript below for those that can’t use podcasts, or simply prefer to read.

Welcome to another edition of the SafeToNet Foundation safeguarding podcast with Neil Fairbrother exploring the law culture and technology of safeguarding children online.

Neil Fairbrother

Convergence is the tendency of unrelated animals and plants to evolve superficially similar characteristics under similar environmental conditions. Sharks and dolphins are a great example. Once a fish, the other’s a mammal, and yet they are often mistaken, the one for the other. Online gambling and online gaming are two other examples of convergence and to guide us through this, I’m joined by two guests from the Young Gamers and Gamblers Education Trust, otherwise known as YGAM. Welcome to the podcast, Lucy Gardner, and Kev Cleland.

Lucy & Kevin, YGAM

Thank you very much! Thank you!

Neil Fairbrother

Can you give us a brief resume please? So that our audience around the world has an appreciation of your experience? Lucy first, perhaps?

Lucy Gardner YGAM

Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you very much now. So I am Lucy Gardner and I’ve been with YGAM for about 14 months now and absolutely loving it. So it’s been a real steep learning curve for me on this job. My background has been within the education sector, but with charities mainly, so the third sector. I used to work for a charity in London, which was looking at bridging the gap between poorer students and more privileged students within the education sector. So that’s kind of my background being within the charities, but looking at education primarily.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. Thank you, Lucy… and Kev?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

Yeah. Thanks Neil. And again, thanks for having us this afternoon. It’s great to be here. So my name’s Kevin Cleland, so I’m the Operations Director at YGAM and I joined the charity just over three years ago. And my role means that I oversee different operations, which we’ll talk about a bit later. When I joined the charity, I came to YGAM with over 10 years of experience working in the primary education sector mainly, working at a number of schools across the North of England, although I did do my initial teacher training up in Scotland and also took part in the Outstanding Teacher Program, which took me into working in a secondary setting as well.

Neil Fairbrother

Thank you for that, Lucy and Kev. So what is YGAM, the Young Gamers and Gamblers Education Trust?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

Yeah. Okay. I think I’ll go first and answer that question. So YGAM, we’re a UK charity and we were founded on the lived experience of two people just coming up for seven years ago now. So our CEO Lee Willows, who was involved in the non-formal education sector for over 20 years before a gambling addiction took him to the brink of suicide and saw him appear in court after stealing from his employer.

Now Lee, as part of his recovery set up the charity alongside a lady called Ann Evans, who’s really important to us as a charity. She’s our Founder Patron and as a former primary teacher whose son Alan took his own life just coming up for 11 years ago now after a prolonged battle with gambling, which dated back to his teenage years as well.

And both Anne and Lee thought it was really important to put education at the centre of all of our work around harm prevention and our social purposes to inform, educate, and safeguard young people against gaming and gambling harms.

And in order to achieve this, we do a number of things. We have a number of different programs. Lucy mentioned that she works on the Young People’s Gambling Harm Prevention Program, which is a partnership that we have with another charity called GAMCare. Through that partnership, we look to train teachers, school support staff, youth workers, across England Wales and Northern Ireland.

And this obviously due to the pandemic, this has been delivered online in the form of a two and a half hour workshop, which is either delivered split or altogether. And after this workshop, we get our attendees get access to our award-winning resources that are all mapped to the relevant national curriculum and have been written by our team of education professionals and have been externally approved as well.

We’ve got other programs as well. So we have the University Student Engagement Program where we looked to train university support staff and deliver information directly to students by our own online student hub, which has been written for students by our team of students who work for us part-time whilst completing the studies at universities across the country.

We also have a parent program, which Lucy also assists us on brilliantly. And this also benefits from its own website, the Parent Hub, which is there to provide parents with information about gaming and gambling, including how to spot the signs of harm, how to start the conversations, where to get help, and also just generally looking at how to demystify that world of video games in particular. And we do look at that those blurred lines between gaming and gambling as well.

And then finally, we’ve got our Mindful Resilience Program, which is currently a pilot, it’s a two-year pilot, where we’re working with Bournemouth University, Bet No More, and the Responsible Gambling Council and through this pilot program, which covers the London area initially, we’re looking to deliver training on gaming, gambling, and digital behavioral addictions to help professionals. And this is again informed by lived experience and academic insight as well.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay Kev, thanks for that. Now you mentioned COVID there and I think we can’t really have a podcast about online gambling and gaming without talking a little bit about COVID. Have you noticed any difference in addiction rates or behaviors during the COVID lockdowns?

Lucy Gardner YGAM

Yes, there’s a little bit of research has been done. Obviously some of this has been put back because of subsequent lockdowns. So some research that was planned after the first lockdown had to then be pushed back because there was the second one and then the third one. I know when research has been done by IPSOS Mori looking at kind of gaming attitudes, gambling attitudes, has produced some findings. So typically levels of gambling did go down but when we look at it in the broader context, it’s not really surprising because betting shops were cancelled. Most live sport was cancelled. So lots of the forms of gambling, which people might’ve traditionally done, they weren’t able to do, but online gambling did go up. So online slot machines, for example, they went up by 25%. Online poker was up by 38% and the amount of money that was lost kind of within that lockdown period also increased a lot.

Now, we’re not saying that suddenly everyone was gambling, because it was something to do, but people who traditionally gambled or who were potentially at-risk gamblers, they started gambling more than they had done originally.

And also research has been looking at gaming as well. COVID had a big impact on gaming and the amount of time that young people were spending on online. So I think at the end of 2019 children, 10 to 16 year-olds were spending an average of about 11.6 hours, to 12 hours a week on gaming. That then increased to about 13.6 by the middle of last year.

Obviously, you know, children they were at home, so it was something to do and so it’s not really surprising that increase there. But there was a report of spending a little bit more money online as well on things like loot boxes, which I know you’ve mentioned earlier, but I mean the report there and the really interesting piece of research has been done by the University of Glasgow has also highlighted the importance that gaming has had and when parents were questioned in this research, they said the gaming has had such a positive impact as well, both, you know, helping their children stay interested and stay chatting to their friends and staying connected to their communities, but also helping with education. So there have been some potential negatives, but also some real positives as a result of COVID.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. Thank you for that. Now according to some analysis that was produced by the National Audit Office gambling companies’ yield from licensed online gambling operations increased from £1 billion to £5.3 billion in a 10-year period from 2009 to 2019. What does this translate to in terms of problem gamblers and indeed, what is a problem gambler? How is that defined?

Lucy Gardner YGAM

So for problem gambling, we use the Gambling Commission’s definition and they define a problem gambler as someone whose habit compromises, disrupts, or damages their family, their personal, or their recreational pursuits. So it’s having a direct impact on not just themselves, but their wider life as well.

And in terms of the size of the problem the House of Lords suggested that at the end of 2020, there were over 300,000 problem gamblers or disordered gamblers in the UK. At YGAM, our focus is very much on young people. There has been research done on this as well, and the Gambling Commission publishes a report every year. The 2020 report was obviously impacted because of COVID. So we look at the stats from 2019 and across England, Scotland and Wales, 11% of 11 to 16 year-olds had spent their own money on gambling in the last seven days.

And this equates to about 350,000 11 to 16 year-olds and of those you can equate about 1.7% as being a problem gambler and a further 2.2% can be regarded as at risk, so potentially being harmed or potentially at risk of harm as an impact of their gambling.

A really interesting piece about this research and the research that the Gambling Commission does is it puts into context what we call risky behaviours; so taking illegal drugs, for example, drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes. Things you might traditionally think of as young people doing as a risky behaviour and more of those 11 to 16 year-olds had gambled over the last seven days than had taken illegal drugs, smoked an e-cigarette or smoked tobacco cigarette. It came second only to drinking an alcoholic drink.

And we might not think that about younger children, you know, we might think of them typically smoking. We might typically think of them, you know, potentially taking illegal drugs because that’s what we talk about all the time. We have those education programs built in place. It’s what as families we talk about all the time, but we’re not really talking about gambling.

And so it’s really interesting and quite worrying that there are so many young people potentially taking part in this behaviour, but we’re not speaking about it very much and potentially not recognizing that that problem is there.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. Now we covered Internet Gaming Disorder in a previous podcast with a neuroscientist called Michael Smit and he explored the impact of dopamine on the Reward Network in adolescent brains in particular. And he compared that dopamine hit to a class A drug, cocaine he referenced. Is this the same sort of mechanism that leads to gambling addiction?

Lucy Gardner YGAM

Yes, I think so. There is evidence that links dopamine with gambling addiction and with gaming disorder. So because it’s very central to that reward system, when you get that dopamine hit it lights up that reward centre of your brain. And so just like it does with cocaine, for example, it does the same with gambling. It lights up that area, it’s that pleasure centre, it’s that “Oh, something fantastic’s happened”. So there is that link there definitely with dopamine.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. Now there does seem to be some convergence of gaming and gambling. Gaming has got some gambling features and gambling sites and apps use a lot of the techniques from the gaming industry to hook, or allegedly, perhaps I should say, hook their paying customers to keep coming back for more. And social media companies use similar techniques. It there now a difference between an online game and an online gamble?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting question Neil. One of the key differences out there is obviously, first of all, that you can participate in most forms of gaming, but with gambling there is that legal restriction in forms of licensed gambling. So most forms of gambling, you have to be 18 or over. Although we do know the evidence is out there showing that a number of young people are placing bets with friends, either in games played in the playground or on their consoles, via games, such as FIFA, which was something that we found out about last year.

But there are definitely blurred lines. And for over two years, we focused on these at YGAM through our workshops, through our resources, et cetera, as well. We obviously look at those in-game purchases and loot boxes in particular, and there is growing research out there that shows that they do replicate gambling and appeal to people who display problem gambling tendencies.

Gamble Aware for example, we published a report earlier this year, which concluded that twelve of the studies that are out there, find those links to problem gambling behaviour as well. But there are other things as well that it’s important to focus on around the gaming world as well. So we also look at the world of e-sports, which Lucy talked about the increase in gross gambling yield from some of the online forms of gambling that took place last year during the first lockdown. E-sports grew hugely during that period. So the gross gambling yields went to reach £1.5 million in March 2020 in the UK. And that was compared to just £50,000 for the same month for March in 2019 and that equates to a year-on-year increase of 2992%. So it’s huge and it continued to grow as well.

It continued to grow over the next two months. It doubled in April, and then it rose again in May as well. And one of the things that really is important to understand about e-sports is that it’s something that really appeals to younger people. So a white paper published by the International Gambling Studies recently revealed, again, that the average age of an e-sports better is 21, which is considerably younger than the average age of the demographic of normal betters. And also there’s more of a balanced male to female split as well, which again, is something to be concerned about.

And then on top of that, we’ve got the mobile gaming world as well. So over 70% of 5 to 16 year-olds now own their own smartphone, and this allows them regular access to hundreds of free games and a number of these free games feature gambling mechanisms as ways of progressing in the game. So for example, roulette wheels and slot machines that have reward systems in there, and then also feature gambling vocabulary as well. So it’s normalizing that behaviour amongst young people, and it’s also giving them the false impression sometimes that it’s easy to win on these different games of chance as well.

Neil Fairbrother

This is a great example of the convergence of the two different areas of gaming and gambling and probably the most well-known or infamous features of this is the “loot box”. We’ve talked about loot boxes before in a number of podcasts, but it’s probably worthwhile examining them again. So what is the definition of a loot box and why is it such a problem?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

Yep. So the definition that we give, and Lucy will be great at giving extra information here as well because she obviously delivers our training, so we talk about loot boxes as being virtual items that can be purchased in games using real money or in-game currency. And that once purchased and opened, the users, the gamers, will find a randomized selection of items that customize or alter their user-experience of the game.

I think one of the key things that we always say to the professionals that we train, and to parents when we speak to them, is that you don’t actually receive a physical object in the offline world. I think that’s where sometimes there’s a bit of confusion amongst adults in particular who don’t really understand these items as well.

And the items can be skinned so they can change the appearance of your character or, for example, different equipment, or just the appearance of that equipment, or it can be new weapons or tools or characters that improve your ability and your performance in the game. So they appear in a whole multitude of games as well, such as FIFA, Fortnite, et cetera, as well.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. Now my understanding is that some games will almost force players to buy a loot box to circumvent being bogged down in a lengthy “grinding” session. What is grinding session and how does a loot box get out of it?

Lucy Gardner YGAM

Grinding is where you will play a consistently or repetitively, a repeated series of actions multiple times to try and get something within a game. So it might be for example, there’s a game where you’re trying to build up a farm. And in order to build this farm, you have to chop down loads of woods. So you will spend a significant portion of your game chopping down woods. Where you can get around this is to purchase a loot box. And that’s a kind of a fast track way to getting that those items. That’s the kind of the definition of grinding. It’s doing something repetitively over and over again within a game to try and get something.

Neil Fairbrother

So could it be said that gaming companies are encouraging gambling to get out of a dead end in a game that they themselves have constructed?

Lucy Gardner YGAM

Yes, it is. I mean, it’s possible. I mean with loot boxes there is always the option that you can use your virtual currency. So if you’ve played for enough hours, or if you have the skills and you have built up kind of enough money within the game, that you can purchase those loot boxes. But there is that pressure to keep up with your peers, for example, so to purchase a loot box so you will be at the same level at the same time as your peers, or to keep up with them in terms of having the cool items.

As Kevin mentioned, you know, there are these skins within the games, which allow you to personalize your avatar. And it’s not enough now to have skin that you start the game with. It’s become a fashion statement almost to have a cool skin within the game. I mean, fashion design houses, Louis Vuitton, is designing skins for within a game. So is Balenciaga, and these are called prestige skins.

So you know, they cost a lot more money just like Louis Vuitton would cost more in real life, if you want a Louis Vuitton skin within a game, it costs more money. And so there is that pressure for young people to purchase these loot boxes in order to, as I said, you know, keep up with their peers, to maintain their status, I suppose, just like, you know, when I was younger, if I didn’t have the latest hairstyle or the latest trainers, I was uncool. It’s the same, it’s just moved online now.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. Now just a few short weeks ago, the UK government published the first draft of the Online Safety Bill and unlike the Online Harms white paper, which covered a lot of online harms, the Online Safety Bill only really mentions two specific ones, which are terrorism and [child] sexual abuse. And then there’s a general catchall for content that might produce a psychological or physical injury. Online gambling or gambling in general, wasn’t mentioned. Is this a missed opportunity?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

I think one of the important things to point out at this point Neil as well is that yeah it doesn’t mention online gambling when it was published recently, but one of the other things that is currently ongoing at the moment is that on a government policy level, there’s also an ongoing review into the Gambling Act from 2005, to ensure that that regulatory framework is fit for the digital age.

So there are some moves being made around gambling in particular. And YGAM have contributed to this process. We submitted our evidence to the DCMS earlier this year as well. And yes, that world has changed significantly since that legislation was passed and there is definitely more that needs to be done. And we believe at YGAM that education plays a really essential role in preventing all kinds of different harms as well, that young people potentially face in life as they grow up. And it’s about ensuring that they’re equipped to live safely and responsibly in that digital world as well.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay, but other countries have a slightly different approach. Belgium, for example, has I believe made loot boxes illegal. Do we really need to change the Gambling Act here to ban loot boxes?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

I think one of the things where we need to be careful with loot boxes is that by classifying them as gambling, doesn’t just eliminate the problem, you know, or take away the issue amongst young people. As Lucy mentioned earlier, you know, the fact that 11% of 11 to 16 year-olds have gambled in the past seven days, according to that Gambling Commission report from 2019, so whilst most forms of gambling are restricted to people who should be 18 or over, that doesn’t stop them from actually participating in these potentially harmful activities.

So, yes, I think that there is a need to look at loot boxes, but I think we also need to be wary that there are other features within loot boxes, even within gaming as well. So in-game currency, for example, causes a great deal of confusion amongst gamers and amongst parents as well in particular about really making it a bit more sort of transparent how the gaming world operates and giving that clearer picture to parents, which again, is where our Parent Hub comes in, because we look to provide that gaming glossary.

You mentioned grinding earlier on, that’s just one of the whole huge collection of words that we put on our games glossary to break down and sort of demystify that world of gaming for parents, really.

Neil Fairbrother

If 11 to 16 year-olds are gambling online, should there be an age verification system in place to make sure that these under eighteens don’t get onto gambling platforms?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

There is an age verification process currently. And I would say that even in my time with the charity, that age verification process has been made far more robust than it used to be. And it is a lot better than it was.

There are still obviously opportunities out there for, for young people to gamble on the black market, on the dark web, however, we want to refer to it. But also as we talked about right at the start a number of young people, so the most popular form of gambling amongst young people still is that private bet amongst each other. Our message really is about increasing that awareness of what exactly gambling is. That it’s not just restricted to the online world. It also takes place offline. It’s not just people going to the bookies or, you know, placing a bet on the Grand National.

But also breaking down that slight sort of misconception as well around the problem gambler. So Lucy mentioned that definition of a problem gambler as well earlier on. And again, it’s making people realize that a young person who’s experiencing gambling harm, it doesn’t have to be somebody at that desperation stage, which our CEO Lee Williams experienced, or Alan Lockhart experienced. It can just be that young person who’s maybe their performance at school has dipped slightly, or they’ve stopped turning up at football training, or they’ve fallen out of contact with their friends, you know, at university, for example, as well, their friends back home. So it’s trying to break down some of that stigma and shame that still surrounds this activity.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. What role could or should the credit card or payment industry play in this context? Could they be involved in stopping these micro-payments somehow?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

I think everybody’s got a responsibility there, haven’t they? On terms of, if we look at sort of gambling and credit cards, so gambling on credit cards has been banned since April 2020 last year. And that was a move that at YGAM we really welcomed, we readily welcomed. And as we mentioned earlier on, one of the major differences between gambling and gaming is that most forms of gambling are restricted to people aged 18 or over, whilst games carry that PEGI rating ranging from 3 up to 18 as well.

Loot boxes as we’ve already discussed, aren’t restricted to just those games carry an 18 certificate. Despite what has happened in the Netherlands and Belgium, as you mentioned already Neil, you do have to be 18 to open a credit card though. So young people who are using credit cards to purchase micro-transactions are using the parents’ or an older siblings’ credit card. So again, we think it’s crucial to inform and educate parents about these in-game mechanics, helping them set parent controls on the different devices, for example, to safeguard their children as well.

Neil Fairbrother

The APPG, the All-Party Parliamentary Group, for Gambling Related Harm recently made some recommendations, which they say will better protect vulnerable people, their families and communities. And one of the suggestions that they’ve made is that the Gambling Commission, which in the UK, I think is the gambling authority, is “not fit for purpose”, which is quite a strong statement. What’s your view?

Lucy Gardner YGAM

I think with the APPG they do some fantastic work and some really important work, and they really helped this kind of debate about gambling over the last couple of years. And they’re one of the groups that we do engage with them, with their help, we use their information, their support to inform our approach and our program.

And that recent report that you mentioned was really, really insightful for everyone working within the sector. And we do support a number of their recommendations. We try to stay away from making specific kind of judgments about what they say because we’re not campaigning organization. We are an education based charity. And so we would never came to have that kind of expertise to contribute to those intricate kind of decisions and those intricate kind of specifications.

There are lots and lots of different things we look out for. So we took a really keen interest in different recommendations, which was made by the House of Lords Gambling Harm and they produced a report called Time for Action last year, which had a really in-depth focus of protecting children and young people and [there are] lots and lots of recommendations in there, some of which we think are most important. But we try and stay away very much for making specific kind of judgements on things because we are more focused, and we think the focus needs to be around education rather than us standing up and making kind of statements about what we think is right and not right.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. One of the suggested solutions to online gambling in particular is known as affordability checks. What are affordability checks and how might they work?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

Again, I mean, I think one of the things that we focus on Neil is that our main focus is young people of a school age. So to even sort of discuss affordability checks with young people of a school age, we wouldn’t really regard that as appropriate because what we promote is that young people shouldn’t be gambling. That we should increase their awareness of the potential harm that’s out there. And then also that they’re making those informed decisions not to gamble. And then hopefully when they do reach an age when they are of that legal age, where they can gamble that they can do in hopefully a safer way just as they would do other potentially harmful activities.

Neil Fairbrother

The Royal Society published some interesting research into the connection between gambling and gaming and they came up with five characteristics that they say differentiates gambling from other risk related areas. And the first one of those is the “exchange of money or something of value”. Is that something you would agree with?

Lucy Gardner YGAM

Yes, I think so. Anything that goes with kind of the general definition of gambling is that, you know, you are potentially putting money on something or something that you value very much, and there’s no certain outcome off that. So you don’t know whether you’re going to get that money back, or you don’t know whether you’re going to lose that possession. So that does fit in with the definition that we use and we would agree with that one.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. They also say that a “future event determines the results of this exchange, and the outcome of this event is unknown at the time that a bet is made”. Is that also something you agree with?

Lucy Gardner YGAM

Again, I think that goes with the whole the not knowing the outcome, that risk element of gambling, isn’t it? That you don’t know what the outcome is going to be. So you are potentially losing and you don’t know what that outcome is going to be. You placed that bet, you could win, you could win big, but you could also lose it all.

Neil Fairbrother

Yes, and chance clearly plays a big part in this, which is their third characteristic of gambling: “losses can be avoided by simply not taking part”, which is the fourth characteristic. That’s a slightly tricky one, I think, because while it may be true, that losses can be avoided by simply not taking part, the hard part of that is to simply not take part, if you happen to be addicted to gambling.

Lucy Gardner YGAM

Yes, definitely. And I think, I mean, one of the things that I talk about a lot when I speak to teachers is the language that we use around gambling and, you know, we’ll often say to somebody, well, why don’t you just stop? And, you know, discussions with individuals who have struggled with problem gambling, when somebody says, why don’t you just stop? It sounds really simple for us to say that, but if you are struggling, it’s really not very simple to actually just go, yeah, you know what, today I’m just not going to.

So we do need to be changing our language and we do need to be very mindful of how that might be interpreted by somebody who is struggling because to them that might sound like, yeah, why can’t I stop? What’s wrong with me? Am I useless? Am I a terrible person because I simply can’t stop?

So I think we do need to be quite careful of the language we use because something maybe as innocent sounding as, “Why don’t you just not just not gamble today?”, or “Why don’t you just place a smaller bet today?” or whatever it might be, might sound really innocent to us, but how that might be interpreted can have a really big impact on somebody’s mental health and their wellbeing because of how they feel about our words.

Neil Fairbrother

Well, that’s a really interesting point Lucy. So what should someone say to someone if they think that that someone does have a problem with gambling?

Lucy Gardner YGAM

I think, and I’m sure Kevin will agree with me here, that it’s all about opening up that conversation. So it’s approaching in a nonjudgmental way and just having a conversation with them. So ask them whether they’ve noticed anything about their behaviour or asking them if they’ve got any worries about their behaviour at all, and kind of almost putting the ball in their court to have that conversation, but not letting them know that you are there to support them and just understanding that you don’t have all the answers. You know what I mean?

A lot of us probably won’t have any idea how to deal with problem gambling at all. We might not have any information about it, but just being there and being able to be an approachable person and being able to have those conversations and also educating ourselves. So, if we are worried about somebody that we care about, there’s lots of research out there, go and read up about it, try and talk to them, try and get an understanding from their point of view, but just being really mindful about what we’re saying.

But I think in everything that we do at YGAM, it’s all about opening up those conversations and talking about a topic that isn’t spoken about. And just like Kevin said, you know, there is a huge amount of stigma and shame still associated gambling. And it is called the “hidden addiction” because unlike with alcohol and drugs, for example, you can often see the physical side effects of that. You can’t always see the physical side effects of gambling. And so it is often kept hidden until quite far along the journey within problem gambling. And so it’s about letting people know that it’s not a shameful thing. If you are struggling, seek help, seek support, and be really open and honest about that.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. If you’re in the middle of an addiction would you actually know, would you recognize that you have a problem? And if not, how could you lead someone to that conclusion themselves?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

I think that’s one of the things Neil, isn’t it really where we believe it’s really important to adopt, we adopt a “cascade model”. We want to inform and educate teachers and parents that they can also spot those signs. It’s not necessarily the individual identifying the signs within themselves. It’s that professional, it’s that person who has the influence over the attitudes and behaviours of a young person that they can also potentially identify those signs in others, or even the peers might be able to identify those signs. So we list those in our workshops and we also provide them in our materials as well that we provide teachers. And then we think it’s important to ensure that we’re confident with where we suggest that people are signposted for help and support, that we know that that’s a valuable and worthwhile service as well.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. Now you published, I think a three-year strategy last year. So I think this is year two of your three year strategy. What is the purpose of that strategy and how will you measure the outcomes?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

So in terms of our three year strategy, our three year strategy was actually produced initially in 2019 so we’re due to redo our next three year strategy at the end of this year. But the current strategy, the main focus really has been about putting education at the heart of gambling and gaming harm prevention.

We’ve got four goals in that strategy. We want to strengthen the reach and influence of our education programs, which I think we’ve demonstrated in terms of the rollout of the Young People’s Gambling Harm Prevention program in the last 12 months. And also the expansion of our university student engagement program and our parent program as well.

We want to evaluate our impact, share knowledge and increase understanding. So again, we’ve done that. We worked with NCVO’s charities’ evaluation service, who evaluated the impact of our education program at the end of 2019, and we’re looking as part of the Young People’s Gambling Harm Prevention program as well to conduct a follow-up evaluation of that program at the end of year one, and then look at conducting some longitudinal research as well.

We want to maintain the highest standard and relevance of all of our content, which again, we’ve done in the form of responding to that NCVO’s charities’ evaluation services, which again, recommended that we build on our resources. So we now make sure, as we mentioned at the start, that our resources are all mapped to the relevant national curriculum, that there is really that depth of learning it’s that spiral curriculum, so that subjects are revisited year on year as well throughout somebody’s academic experience as well.

And then finally we want to continue to improve our organizational effectiveness. So in terms of our Board of Trustees, we’re always looking to recruit new, exciting Trustees, people from an education background, people from diverse communities, for example, and grow our team with incredibly important people who’ve got that experience of working in the education sector, experience of even being parents or experience of working in the university sector as well, to ensure that we’re continuing to develop as a charity and provide the best service that we can, but whilst also looking to collaborate with others.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay, thank you. Now time is running short, but a couple of quick questions if I may. On your website, you refer to something called “mindful resilience” which sounds quite intriguing. What is it, and what part does it play in online gambling addiction?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

Mindful Resilience really is the program that we run with Bournemouth University, Bet No More, the Responsible Gambling Council. So that’s our program that’s looking to deliver training on gaming, gambling, in digital behavioural addictions to health professionals. And again, it’s using that mindfulness approach and helping people develop their resilience as part of that. So it’s about ensuring that people are given that time through those medical professionals to hopefully pause and reflect, but then also ensuring that they’re supported on that journey as well, if they are experiencing harm.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. Thank you. Final question as we really are running out of time, what is the future looking like for YGAM, what’s happening this year?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

It’s an exciting year for us. So obviously we’ve just moved into year two of the Young People’s Gambling Harm Prevention program with GamCare. That really has exceeded our targets so far at the end of year one, which after a year that has seen COVID and seen us take our training online for the first time, we’re delighted with the reach to young people, as well as also being impressive.

But we’ve also looked to develop our resources in the Welsh language, and we work with the Youth Worker Alliance in Northern Ireland, an organization that is skilled in cross-community work. And that sort of shows that we’re always looking to deliver culturally appropriate services, which is why we’re also working with Tony Kelly, I know somebody that you’ve spoken to yourself before and his team at Red Card.

We’re working with TalkGen as well, another CIC and then with Clearview Research on the preventing gambling harms in diverse communities program. So this is looking at how best to meet the needs of those, particularly from the black, Asian, and minority ethnic communities. Again, as a result of a co-creation piece that we put together with Clearview Research after evidence that was published by GambleAware, where which showed that people from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities are less likely to gamble, but people from those communities who do gamble are more likely to experience harm. This pilot’s going to cover the London and Home Counties when it we’ll see TalkGen and Red Card delivering young person facing educational content, whilst YGAM will stick to what we know best, which is looking to train those influencers. So we’re going to be training community and faith leaders.

Again, responding to that feedback from the co-creation group that we got with Clearview as well, they talked about the need to make sure it was culturally relevant materials. And then also, it was speaking to the young person in their voice as well. So we’re looking to develop some video content and digital content to support that work. We’re also obviously continuing to try and reach as many university staff and students as many parents as we can, and now medical professionals as well.

And we just urge anybody who comes from any of these backgrounds or a collection of these backgrounds to get in touch, to find out more about how we can support them, because we want to work with as many organizations as we can and support as many young people as we can moving forward.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. Thank you, Kevin whereabouts can people go online to find your information?

Kevin Cleland YGAM

The best place is our main website, which is www.ygam.org. Although also there are links through that to take you through to our specific Parent Hub and also to our Student Hub as well.

Neil Fairbrother

Terrific. Well, thank you very much, Kevin and Lucy, a fascinating insight into the world of the convergence of gambling and gaming. Good luck with everything, and it’d be good to keep in touch and hear the results of your program in a few months’ time.

Lucy Gardner YGAM

Thank you so much, Neil. It’s been a pleasure to join you.