Safeguarding Podcast – Lock Them Up and Throw Away the Key, with Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

By Neil Fairbrother

In this safeguarding podcast with Jenny Greensmith-Brennan of Safer Lives, we ask is there a way other than prison of dealing with offenders? Is prison effective and is it offenders’ biggest fear? What is the balance between retribution and justice? Is offender rehabilitation possible? What is the impact on the family of an abuser looking at images online? And what role does the media have in all this?

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There’s a lightly edited for legibility transcript below for those that can’t use podcasts, or for those who simply prefer to read.

Welcome to another edition of the SafeToNet Foundation’s safeguarding podcast with Neil Fairbrother, exploring the law, culture and technology of safeguarding children online.

Neil Fairbrother

Lock them up and throw away the key is a common reaction and refrain from the general public, for those who committed sexual abuse crimes against children, particularly the very young. But is there another way of dealing with these offenders? What is the balance between retribution and justice? Is offender rehabilitation possible?

To help guide us through this complex topic, I’m joined by Jenny Greensmith-Brennan of an organization called “Safer Lives”. Welcome to the podcast, Jenny.

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

Thank you Neil, hello.

Neil Fairbrother

Can you Jenny provide us with a brief resumé so that our listeners from around the world have an appreciation of your background and experience?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

Absolutely. So my background is in the Probation service. I qualified as an Officer in 2006 and then as a Probation Officer, I specialized in working with people with sexual offense convictions, facilitating group work programs, and then became the person who had to make sure that other facilitators were delivering the group programs as they were supposed to be and left the probation service in 2013, to become a specialist working with young people with sexual offenses or sexually harmful behaviours with the Leeds Youth Offending Service. in 2014, myself and two previous probation colleagues established Safer Lives and I then left Youth Offending in 2016 to work full time at Safer Lives… I guess is now the time to tell you a bit more about Safer Lives?

Neil Fairbrother

Well, you pre-empted my very next question, which is, what is Safer Lives?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

So Safer Lives is an agency, whose aim is to help people make the changes that they want to make. We work predominantly with adult men because they are the predominant people who are arrested for sexual offenses. We are slightly different because we work with them usually 90% of the time whilst they are under investigation for that offense. So the police will handout, or many police forces anyway, should be handing out a welfare pack to someone who is arrested and our details are in many of those.

The majority of our work is with people who have committed online sexual offenses, whose investigations can take you know, two years to be concluded. So our work with them is about helping them to stay alive. Their suicide risk is huge.

We work with family members and I’m sure we’ll come on to that. The impact on the indirect victims, which are often partners and certainly their own children, often who are present in the household when the police knock on the door. And it’s about supporting people to make the changes that mean they don’t reoffend, you know, which for us is a bit of a no brainer.

There’s a huge amount about talk to children about being online, put blockers in places, you know, monitor everyone that’s a potential risk, and this isn’t arguing against that. This is saying, would it be beneficial to also put resources into working with people who maybe have done that before and want to not do it again? But working with them, you know, it’s not about restrictions. It’s about how do we make that not happen?

And that’s kind of where the probation background obviously comes in, because that’s the key aim of probation, but also it’s with people who maybe have not actually committed an offense yet, but feel that they are quite close to it. Those individuals can contact us and work with us as well. And that’s a separate part really of what we do. So it’s a bit of a mixed bag, but ultimately it’s about keeping everyone as safe as they can be.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. Now what is wrong with the “lock them up and throw away the key” approach to offenders, which is a common response from the general public, particularly in the comments section on various news sites and so on? Why not simply lock these offenders up and leave them there?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

I guess, because as humans ideally we are wanting to understand why people do certain things and to help them contribute back to society. You know, if you lock someone up, you’re taking someone’s father away from them, your effectively saying to them “There isn’t a good in you” and we just want to punish. I think our take is that punish the behaviour, absolutely, and also harness the potential the potential that person has to do good.

Our service has developed over the six years because we get our feedback from the men that we work with. If they were locked up, we wouldn’t have as great an idea as we do about actually what helps to prevent offending. I think actually it’s about bringing people with experience of having those thoughts, bringing them into the arena and you know, allowing them to try and understand what they’ve done and how to help others.

The number of our clients who, you know, they go through the courts, they receive whatever outcome they receive. They stay in contact, they come back, they say, “What can I do to help the agency?” “Do you want me to, you know, write something for your website?” “Do you want me to contribute financially so that other people are able to access services that don’t have the resources?”

So there’s an assumption isn’t there that the people that commit sexual offenses are the “others”. It’s not you, it’s not me, it’s not my husband, it’s not your cousin. It’s some other people we don’t know who, but it’s definitely not us.

Neil Fairbrother

And there is, of course the stereotypical image that still hangs over this of the dirty old man in a rain coat kind of syndrome?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

Absolutely, you know, “Stranger Danger”, that was all the rage as a slogan, certainly when I was young and actually it’s not stranger danger is it? It’s who is the person that is not the stranger, who is the person that is, you know we all know this I think all too well, as many people as people listening to this are probably very well aware of, you know, the assumptions that it’s only strangers, it only happens in bedrooms, you know, it’s only men of a certain age or ethnicity or religion. And they’re stereotypes, unfortunately are I think largely what allows sexual abuse to continue because, you know, no one thinks it could be their partner, their father, their son, and, you know, I’ve got two boys and I am well aware that actually no mother ever thinks their child could commit a sexual offense until it happens.

So we have to be having these conversations with children from a very early age, not just about them as potential victims, but look, these are the other things that actually you need to be aware of to make sure that you never do anything that you shouldn’t do either. And you know, I don’t see those conversations happening maybe as often as they should either.

So I’m not entirely sure I’ve answered the question, but the obvious answer is, well, it doesn’t work. Sexual offenses still happen there isn’t room in prisons, you know,

Neil Fairbrother

It’s not a deterrent, whereas what you’ve described is like a positive feedback loop. By learning about it, you are reducing the likelihood of any given offending again and you can also take that those learnings and apply it to people who in some instances are coming to you before they’ve offended. And so you’re actually reducing the number of offenders in the first place.

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

I think we’re reducing the number of, yes, from a personal viewpoint I believe that we have had a positive impact in terms of reducing numbers of men who view images again, or who abused a child again. I mean, someone though, who does have a conviction for sexual abuse of a child, they are obviously most likely to receive custodial sentence and rightly so there has to be a consequence.

I think as well as the assumption that locking someone up and throwing away the key is the biggest consequence to people, but it’s not. The biggest consequence is loss of family support, it’s loss of community, loss of identity, loss of being respected. They’re the bigger losses and I think that’s why we see so many people that will maintain innocence because… I don’t know, would you rather plead innocence and know that when you come out of prison, your family will still be there for you and you’ll still have that support because they believe you, or would you rather plead guilty, go to prison and come out to nothing.

So there’s a huge amount more, I think to this than either you lock them up and that’s the punishment or you don’t. And when we think about the majority of our clients who have committed online offences they usually, for a first time offense, don’t receive a prison sentence and then there is usually an outcry about the number of people who haven’t gone to prison who’ve done this.

And actually again, prison, what we hear from people is “Send me to prison. That’s fine. I don’t care. Just don’t let people know that my daughter’s father is a sex offender. Just don’t let the people I used to work with know that this person who made a gift then lifts into work or they enjoyed nice lunch with sometimes don’t let them know that actually I’m sex offender.” That’s what people are more scared of. Prison’s almost easier because you go to prison and they don’t have to experience the press and backlash that their wives or children or parents are having to live with at home.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. The, the Centre of Expertise on Child Sexual Abuse in collaboration with the Centre for Abuse and Trauma Studies of Middlesex University earlier this year published what they call a “Typology of Child Sexual Abuse Offending”, and in there they have identified nine types of child sexual abuse, many of which overlap. This is not a straightforward, linear type of offense at all, but they do point out that online interaction is now so ubiquitous that it is likely to feature in almost all cases of child sexual abuse. Is that your experience?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

Well, it’s very difficult because it’s, I guess it’s not including all the child sexual abuse that hasn’t, you know, come to light and because our men, our clients, are predominantly online offenders, what I know is that mixed online offenses in our experience, don’t also include contact offenses from the person viewing the images, obviously the contact offense has happened.

Neil Fairbrother

So just to make sure that everyone understands this. There’s a contact offense, which almost defines itself where in the real world, there is some physical touching going on and then non-contact offenses such as an online streaming offense?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

Well, they are still contact offences, but not by the person that we’re working with, if that makes sense. So if our client has been viewing child sexual abuse material, then that would class from their point of view and in the eyes of the law, and you know, morally, principally, people may well have different opinions, but I think in the eyes of the law that counts as a non-contact offense.

When it’s offline and there is, you know, sexual abuse, then there’s physical contact between, you know, potentially our client and a child or an adult. You know, it’s not only children that are obviously sexually abused.

Neil Fairbrother

Indeed, indeed. Now, to help men who are under investigation for accessing indecent images of children or extreme pornography, online grooming, sexual communication with children, or arranging to meet with minors, voyeurism and “upskirting”, which of course is now I believe an offense, you offer three main services: a Young Person’s Pathway, which is for under eighteens, children themselves, something you call a Transitions Pathway and an Extended Pathway. What are those three services that you offer?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

The key service is a program of work, which is about six hours work in total with a client who, you know, doesn’t present with external needs in terms of, we think that we can cover what we need to cover within six hours. We have to be careful because we receive no external funding, you know, we never have, and we don’t apply for it to be honest. So we have to do what is affordable, so unfortunately we can’t work with someone for a year because it’s unaffordable for most people.

Neil Fairbrother

And so your clients pay?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

They pay, we’re entirely funded by the men that we work with. So the Young Person’s service is, you know, obviously for people, we’d say up to 18, but it depends on, you know, their maturity, their behaviours, their knowledge. So we assess people and you know, young people do view child sexual abuse material, young people do communicate with children sexually online.

We’re not talking about, you know, everything about peers, sexting, and it, by all accounts is consensual, and you have two 14 year old sharing images of themselves with each other. That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about the young people whose sexualized behaviour is clearly not consensual. We’re working with the young person who, or the child who has deliberately sought out images, sexualized images of children younger than themselves. Maybe we have a young person who is identifying a sexual attraction to young children.

The pathway with them would be shorter sessions, adapted work, we’ll maybe amend who does the work, depending on the child’s needs. Some work with family as well. This, you know, we can’t manage this in isolation.

The Transitions Pathway, this is a bit of a baby of my colleague Andy’s. He he’s very interested and obviously know far more about this than I do, just because he’s male. He’s very interested in that transition from being a boy to being a man.

You know, there’s, there’s a huge thing isn’t there about getting men to talk, you know, men are higher rate of suicide. Men are less likely as a huge stereotype, are less likely to talk about their feelings. And I think our argument is that, well, actually, quite often, they don’t even know what their feeling is. How do you talk about something that you can’t name?

Neil Fairbrother

And the Extended Pathway is?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

The Extended Pathway is 8 to 10 hours with the men who are obviously willing and agree or suggest that their behaviours, the things they want to look at are more complex. The person who has multiple sexualized behaviours and we need to look at each one, maybe in turn. The person who is suicide risk is so high that actually we spend the first five hours together just supporting them to manage to stay alive, to try and give a bit more hope so that then we can do the work we need to do.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay. Now you mentioned that there are in general two occasions when your clients will come to you. One is when they are under investigation for offenses that they have been accused of, and the other is basically whenever they want to, when they feel like it. What is the motivation for them in coming to you?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

Distress, shame, judgment, stigma, isolation. Don’t get me wrong, we know full well that some people think that if they come to see us, it will help, you know, it will look good at court, they will be seen favourably by social services if they’re involved…

Neil Fairbrother

So there might be a degree of cynicism there, for at least some people?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

Oh, of course, of course. And there, isn’t a way of saying this well, but actually it doesn’t really matter to us that much. We understand that cynicism and that’s fine. What matters is that the men that we need to reach are being reached. We see that a lot of people might come initially thinking, right, this is going to look good for me, this will look good at court, and we’ll explain straight away, we’re going to ask you the most personal questions that you’ve ever been asked, probably. And we’re going to ask you to talk about your masturbatory habits. We’re going to ask you to talk about people in your life that are significant. We’re going to ask you to think about things that make you feel incredibly uncomfortable sometimes. And it’s unusual that someone would then come back to do that for a letter.

It takes a huge amount of courage, I think, to ring us. People will often say, you know, I dialled the number, but then I hung up. Lots of people will send a text because ringing is just too big a step. So yes, that’s in the systems there. We understand that. We think that we’re quite good at figuring out who is there for the wrong reasons, but you know, whatever the reason is, if actually they get something from it that isn’t just a letter for court, then surely that’s the point.

Neil Fairbrother

Yes, indeed. Now you’ve worked with over 400 men I believe that have accessed online child sexual abuse material. What patterns do you see emerging from that significant body of work?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

Yeah, I mean, that needs some updating. I think we’re kind of hovering around 500 at the minute, and that’s not including the people that I worked with within the Probation Service, this is just through Safer Lives.

Patterns. Yes. You know, there are certain apps that if someone says they have been using, immediately you start to think, okay, that’s potentially different motivations from the person that’s accessed images through peer-to-peer software or Google images, or being used in the Tor browser. So you can tell, you can have an idea quite early on; sometimes it’s about chat rings and wanting communication, anonymous communication, with people. Often, not always, but often men are feeling quite emotionally lonely or worthless really in their daily life and are trying to get some kind of approval or validation somewhere. And if I can have, you know, sex talk with someone and I can help them to achieve orgasm, or they can tell me that I’m saying things they want to hear, or I can send them images that they are asking for, then that person will approve of me and want to keep me in their life, their online life. So we certainly see that pattern.

Where it’s peer-to-peer software, sometimes it’s a bit more about collecting images. You know, if someone has a conviction or it’s found that they’ve viewed a million images or had a million images, sorry, you can’t view a million images. It’s just, well, maybe it’s possible. I’ve never sat down and done the maths. But my initial opinion is that that would be quite difficult and you’d have to never sleep, never go to work and never pick your kids up from school and all that kind of stuff. So we know a lot of that is about collecting and a question I always ask is, you know, would any of your friends or family members describe you as a hoarder? Because sometimes, you know, people who collect online are also people that collect offline. So that’s another pattern we get.

It’s interesting. And again, these are not scientifically tested patterns that we see. We seem to have high number of ex-military men who have maybe struggled to adapt to civilian life, or men who have worked abroad [in the] Middle East, say, for long periods of time and are possibly struggling to adapt to now being back in their family home, but it doesn’t really feel like their family home because it’s not been their home for however long and their wife, you know, still wants to do her thing with their friends and they don’t have friends. It’s a minority of our clients, but I think it’s interesting, let’s say.

Men who have been forced out of work through illness or injury or redundancy or forced early retirement, who lack kind of identity now or purpose. We often find these men retreating online, browsing around maybe watching more pornography as a result. Most people that watch porn, legal porn, don’t then move to abusive images. However, there are minority who for who potentially when they are sexually aroused, it’s easier to allow themselves to make that jump, if that makes sense.

Neil Fairbrother

Yes, there are reports that the very well-known adult porn site, PornHub, allegedly hosts content where the girls in the videos certainly appear to be under age and some people, some researchers have said, and indeed some perpetrators have said, well, I started watching regular adult porn and, for increasing stimulation, I started to watch younger and younger children and they slid into this. Is that something that you’ve found?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

It’s something that we hear. What we don’t take is “While I was watching adult porn and I was curious about what else was out there”. So `I think, you know, we’re all curious about lots of things but it doesn’t mean that we act on them because we know that we shouldn’t.

Neil Fairbrother

It’s not a mitigation.

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

We don’t really entertain it as a legitimate motivator. But in terms of that question, I think PornHub and the main sites, they have categories for Teen, Barely Legal, Babysitter, Daughter/Daddy, Mummy/Son you know, these are categories on legal porn sites. So it would be very difficult, I think, to argue they don’t definitely don’t play a part in people maybe moving from legal to illegal.

AndI think a grey area, which some people struggle with is that, well, you can have sex when you’re 16, so why can’t I watch a 16 year old having sex, If they say it’s okay, if they are, you know, providing consent for that? And that’s not really an argument that, well, we don’t argue with our clients. We will challenge and put forward alternative suggestions, but it’s not about making someone feel worse and making them defensive because then we’re going to get nowhere. But yes, I don’t doubt that there is some illegal material on legal pornography sites and I don’t doubt that it plays a part in some people moving on to illegal images.

Neil Fairbrother

The reaction of people that are accused of looking at this stuff, I wonder if there’s a consistent pattern there? A former MP recently was in the news this week because he was sentenced in court because he was viewing some child sexual abuse material and he seems to have gone through a phase of denial, according to the BBC report he initially told police that he had never seen child abuse material.

Then there was some research done on his computer and he was presented with pretty irrefutable evidence, so he then admitted it. So from denial to admission. And then there was some mitigation there, I think. He said as reported, he accessed it via an email, which he says was spam email. “It wasn’t me Guv, it arrived in an email and it opened”, is the subtext there. And his legal representative, I believe, said that at the time he was drinking heavily. So there’s more mitigation there.

The Centre for Expertise on Child Sexual Abuse report says that many individuals convicted of CSA say that they first perpetrated their offenses at times of depression, anxiety, and stress. Are those in actual fact what happens? Is this kind of activity a result of those kind of mental health issues, or are they playing to the gallery for sympathy?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

It’s always a personal choice. Many who people experience depression do not view child abuse material. So I was having this conversation with a client this morning actually, about how things have to be in alignment. You know, there has to be the emotions that they’re experiencing, whatever they may be, often quite negative ones, but sometimes, you know, it can be very positive ones beforehand. There has to be a feeling that “I don’t know how to manage this” with a lot of clients who have no distress tolerance, just, you know, cannot bear difficult feelings, and have never learned how to handle them well.

In regards to the particular public figure you’re talking about, obviously we’ve no idea about exactly what he has seen, what he has done and when, and you know, the context of that. But no, in our experience, drinking is not a mitigator and opening something accidentally, if it was a one off, then potentially you might get the benefit of the doubt, especially if you had reported it, you know, to either the police or Internet Watch Foundation or someone.

If not, and you’ve then opened it again, maybe to view it, or you have saved it on your device, then I think we’ve got a question about what was it about that particular image or that particular video that led you to do that, rather than to shut your laptop down, run for the hills, ring the police, find out who sent it and do what you can to, I guess, fix the situation that you’re in.

In terms of the denial, well, of course you would. If I committed a sexual offense and someone said “Jenny, we think this is what you’ve done”, because I know what I know about how people with sexual offense convictions are seen, viewed, treated et cetera, I think I probably shouldn’t say this but I wouldn’t want to admit that!

Someone has to see that, okay to own up to this, to take responsibility for this publicly, is going to benefit everyone in the right way. I think it’s unrealistic to expect people to own up to possibly the thing they are most ashamed of.

Neil Fairbrother

In the sentencing of this particular case, Judge Justice Eddis served a sentence which comprised a number of things. There was an eight month sentence, which was suspended for two years, and he was also ordered to complete 150 hours of unpaid work. He was served a Sexual Harm Prevention Order and had an 18 day rehabilitation activity requirement and was ordered to pay costs of 1800 quid. The material that he was found in possession of was described as Category A, which is the most serious type and involved very young children.

And I think part of the reason that the general public has seemed to react quite shocked and angry about the sentence is it does on the face of it appear to be light. This gentleman had a video which depicted some very young children and he hasn’t gone to prison. He has a suspended prison sentence, which may or may not be served, right. He may not serve time. And so there’s this conflict between justice and retribution and in complex cases like this, the general public seems to think that justice has not been served. Is that a reasonable point of view, or is a sentence of this type, for someone who has a video, enough?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

I think to have one Category A video and receive a custodial sentence means that anyone with possession of any material that’s Category A should be going to prison, you know, it would set that precedent. And the difficulty you have is because in an eight month sentence, someone is not going to receive the work within the custodial estate that would benefit them in terms of future offending you know, and understanding how this has happened. Whereas an 18 day rehabilitation requirement, what that means is treatment work with the probation officer. So that means, you know, specialist devised work, looking at the reasons.

So absolutely in a send him to prison, punish him in that way, let him come out none the wiser as to why this has happened and how to manage any risky situations in the future..

Neil Fairbrother

The attendant risk that he may well go on to abuse someone offline?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

I don’t think that that’s necessarily the risk factor there, it doesn’t correlate that you start off with images and you move on to contact offenses, I think it’s a bit of a misconception there. But he could, if he doesn’t understand why, he doesn’t know what are risky times for him, what are risky thoughts for him, then yes it’s going to be harder for him to manage those risky times in a healthy way and in a legal way, potentially.

So by allowing him to stay in the community, but with the threat of custody hanging over him, you know, an eight month sentence that will carry 10 years sex offender registration, and the restrictions that go with that. Unpaid work is punishment, I’m not sure what help it is in terms of stopping re-offending but that’s the punishment element of this. But to me, the most important bit is making sure it doesn’t happen again and that’s where the rehabilitation requirement comes in, you know. In the US he would have gone to prison for a long time for that and I’m not entirely sure that the US criminal justice system is one that we should be trying to emulate.

Neil Fairbrother

The judge did say that this gentlemen “…had sought help from people well able to provide it and there’s evidence before the court that this has had an effect on helping you to reduce perhaps completely your impulsive behaviour”. So presumably he had been through a course similar to your style of work and this was taken into account during the sentencing.

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

Yes, because what’s important is that the people making the decisions about the outcome have got all the information and all the facts and all the evidence, you know, in a way that we don’t get as members of the public. And I find this quite interesting in my own psyche, because I am full of compassion and a desire to understand our clients and their situations, and to try and see the good in people because if we don’t know, what’s potent really? However, when I say someone in the paper with an offense of this type and the report, I will often read and think, Oh my God, you absolutely, you know, expletives! And it is the difference, isn’t it? I’ll read newspaper on some of our own clients and think If I’ve read that and never met him, I would think probably quite differently about it.

Neil Fairbrother

So is there a role of the media here, journalists and so on to perhaps do a more informed job of reporting?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

See, we’ve been really lucky in that there was a reporter with the Yorkshire Evening Post a very forward thinking woman who did a three page spread effectively about us. And she interviewed previous clients. She interviewed the wives of previous clients to get a better understanding of the situation. And she also interviewed a client that had been reported in her own paper and who, as a result lots of things had happened to him and his wife, you know, and she has interviewed the wife also. And watching her listen to the wife was fascinating to be honest, seeing this kind of almost different understanding of the role that the media has, because we’ve focussed haven’t we, on the man? I say the men, because it predominantly is. And actually the indirect victims here are their families which it’s just horrendous.

I don’t have the words to explain, unless you actually speak to a woman who’s been in that situation, or or a child who’s been in that situation, to explain the impacts on them as well. So that was helpful for us to show, look, we are a service who are about reducing reoffending and about supporting the men, but we do an awful lot of work with their families too. But there’s a role for the media in everything. It’s very easy to blame the media for lots of things, isn’t it? And you know, it’s massively unfair to blame everyone for everything half the time.

Neil Fairbrother

Jenny we’re massively over time so just one last question and if you keep the answer as brief as possible please. Jenny how do you know that the therapy or treatments that you provide are working because you can’t monitor your client’s behaviour 24 x 7, and you can’t necessarily restrict them from going online and using things like the Tor browser, which you mentioned. So how do you know that it’s being effective?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

The evaluation that we do, we give a form at the beginning and a your form at the end. We’re currently under evaluation by Sheffield Hallam University, although that’s looking as much on the suicide risk of the men as anything else. I would say we believe that we are because of the feedback that we get. We can’t know for certain, of course not, but the business is expanding rapidly more and more clients are coming and we see positive changes that we know lead to reduction in risk. So it’s based on kind of clinical experience and just the belief really in people to change and do good.

Neil Fairbrother

Jenny on that note, we’re going to have to leave it, I’m afraid. Thank you so much for your time. It’s been absolutely fascinating and intriguing discussion. And should someone want to get in touch with you, how can they do it?

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

So if someone wants to get in touch to learn more, if they can go on the website, which is just www.saferlives.com or email us directly, which is info@saferlives.com.

Neil Fairbrother

Okay, Jenny, thank you so much.

Jenny Greensmith-Brennan, Safer Lives

Thank you.